ADS B Out Installation for Stinson

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PoconoJohnBad
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ADS B Out Installation for Stinson

Post by PoconoJohnBad » Sat Nov 10, 2018 2:54 am

I currently have the Narco AT150 in the panel. I'm considering the Garmin GDL 82 and Garmin GTX 335. I currently use Foreflight on a Wifi only mini-iPad using a bluetooth paired GPS receiver.

I'm wondering if anyone has an idea about the installation cost of the GDL 82 and where the GPS and the device itself would be mounted.

It seems the GTX 335 will slide into the AT150 spot with nothing else to install. I need only an 'Out' antenna or I guess the current one (ADS B 'In' is already set).

Thank you,

John
John Cronin
1946 Stinson 108
Franklin 165
N97663
Poconos, PA

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Re: ADS B Out Installation for Stinson

Post by dcn6102m » Sun Nov 11, 2018 12:15 am

John,
I would mount the GPS antenna on the upper wing band; or alternatively, on the top panel cover. Of course if that top panel cover is covered with some material that would have to be removed to enable a ground plane. I would personally prefer to have the antenna inside, which would make for a shorter, easier cable run. The box itself? One suggestion would be on one of the belly aluminum panels. In Garmin's ads, they show the box on the inside belly skin under the cabin, with the GPS antenna lead going up to the top of the fuselage; and then the other cable running forward and up to the panel to the transponder. My transponder antenna is located on the forward belly skin just aft of the firewall; so either there or the pan under your feet would seem to be a likely spot. Please keep us posted. I'm still in the wait and see mode. The GDL-82 looks like an attractive possibility; but the uAvionix wingtip solution would greatly simplify installation, and I could replace the antique wingtip Hoskin strobes on my wings. UAvionix is also working on a taillight installation.

Dennis Crenshaw. N6102M.

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PoconoJohnBad
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Re: ADS B Out Installation for Stinson

Post by PoconoJohnBad » Sun Nov 11, 2018 4:02 am

Thank you Dennis. For now, I'll continue to look at options and see what other Stinson owners experience. I think the hassle and cost of GDL 82 installation will make the GTX 335 a better option; just looking for now.

John
John Cronin
1946 Stinson 108
Franklin 165
N97663
Poconos, PA

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Re: ADS B Out Installation for Stinson

Post by moffetb » Sun Nov 11, 2018 6:10 am

So, just for comparison. I installed a Stratus ESG in my Stinson. I replaced the 76a and installed the GPS antenna on a access panel on the roof. Works fairly well.

I think the total cost before rebates and selling my old transponder was about 6k.

I would be wary of a slide in replacement statement on the Narco.

Brian
1946 Stinson 108-1, Franklin 165, at one time NX8306K

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Re: ADS B Out Installation for Stinson

Post by lawheelock » Fri Nov 16, 2018 7:05 am

I installed the GTX 335 ADS-B out with a built in GPS source in both my Stinson and Mooney both of which had aging Narco AT 50A transponders and with Narco grey code altitude encoders.
While the Garmin GTX 335 fits in about the same panel hole as the Narcos, it is NOT a slide in replacement In both planes, my transponders were originally mounted on the far right side of the panel. One of Garmins installation requirements for their transponder is that it be mounted in clear view and operating ability of the pilot as there are several functions on the new transponders that sometimes need to be easily accessed. So moving where they were located made the jobs more complex. I mounted the GPS antenna that came with the transponder on the wing root fairing on the Stinson and on top of the cabin on the Mooney replacing the Loran C antennas in each case and the Garmin GPS antenna had the same footprint as the former Loran C antennas. I ended up fabricating the cable from the encoder to the transponder in the Stinson and got it working OK. I had problems with the transponder/encoder interface with the Mooney and ended up buying the Garmin encoder that attaches to the rear of the transponder and makes a much easier installation of the rear connector than with the multiwire grey code encoder. The Garmin encoder that mounts is under $300 from Spruce and saves a lot of time.
I already had a portable Garmin Aerea 796 GPS and a GDL 39 3D receiver that I easily move from one plane to the other and mount the 796 clamped to one of the tubing braces in the Stinson above and to the left of the panel. Much better than some stupid Apple product on the Yoke. The Mooney was more of a challenge on where to place the 796 and previously I had to mount it on the copilot yoke but it was bothersome in the limited room in the Mooney cockpit. This fall I came up with a way to mount the 796 on the left divider between the windshield and the forward side window without making any mods to the plane. I made a plate to support a ball mount that screws to the trim using existing behind the trim screw tabs with no changes to the upholstery trim and it works very well just like the position in the Stinson. In the Stinson the GDL 39 3D which furnishes the weather and ADS-B in to the 796 either through blu tooth or the wired cable. I have an annual subscription from Garmin for database for the 796 which has all approach plates, all sectionals, terrain, obstructions, traffic, airport directory, artificial vision, and everything else ever needed for under $200/year I update every 28 days. The GDL 39 3D also has a built in AHRS that feeds the display on the 796.

This setup works very well for me and I have made several trips in the Stinson and the Mooney using the ADS-B out. It is amazing how much traffic sometimes is depicted and you get its altitude, airspeed, direction and ID. It is also scary as to how little of it actually is picked up visually.

If anyone has questions that I have not covered here, please feel free to ask, I am happy with what I have ended up with in both planes, Maybe there are cheaper ways, but I needed new transponders anyway and this did not add a lot of cost,

Be warned however, those of you that are A&Ps and Garmin allows A&Ps to do the installation instead of requireing a Garmin dealer to do it, wiring the connector is tedious and requires the use of a special crimping tool which I bought on ebay at a much more reasonable price than the normal suppliers. It is a MIL-Spec crimper and the one I got was a used military one, and since I was doing two, that helped justify the costs.
Larry Wheelock, A&P/IA
Stinson 108 N584LW 180 Lyc
Texas in Winter; Indiana in Summer

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Re: ADS B Out Installation for Stinson

Post by mfullmer » Mon Jan 28, 2019 9:00 pm

We just had a Garmin GTX-335 and a GTR-225 Comm radio installed last month. When we bought 68K last summer, it had a KT-76A transponder, and a Narco Escort II radio (as well as a dead II Morrow Loran). I've been using a Stratus 2/iPad Mini/Foreflight combination for ADS-B in for several years. We did lots of looking, touching, and talking at Oshkosh and Triple Tree. We had settled on the 225 Comm, but weren't sure which ADS-B out solution to use. The plan was to wait until Sun-n-Fun to finish researching options before making a decision.

Long story short, the Escort radio quit Thanksgiving weekend, so our timetable changed. Our local avionics shop was booked through the end of March for anything significant, but said he could swap out the Comm radio for us between other jobs if we left the airplane for a couple of weeks. Once we got the plane there, he told me about some Garmin incentives that were going to expire at the end of December, including special pricing, and a free encoder with the purchase of a GTX-335. We looked at the GDL-82 option. But, that required using the old transponder, and higher installation cost. It wasn't that much more to upgrade to a new transponder.

Of course, one thing leads to another, and we had them create an avionics buss with its own master switch, new breakers for the radios, relocate and rewire the intercom and all jacks, add a 12V "cigar lighter" port, and add a Stratus high-speed USB port. The GPS antenna was installed on top of the cabin, where the Comm antenna was previously. That required the addition of a new Comm antenna on the belly, and relocating the transponder antenna. The final bill was right at 8 AMU's (not counting the rebate), which I thought was fair, considering all the work they did. And, we're really happy with the result.
Mark and Julie Fullmer
'47 108-1 N8368K

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Re: ADS B Out Installation for Stinson

Post by truckerloyd » Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:04 pm

Gentlemen, I recommend the Uavionix SkyBeacon. Simple installation and is covered in the aircraft applied. It cost today about $1,900 and works with existing mode S and mode C transponders. No need to change equipment or mount a separate GPS unit. The unit is self contained and is a two or three wire hookup. Depending if you have a strobe system installed in the wingtip. Recommend you change your other nav lights to LED'S as they produce less heat and you need to have your nav light system on.

Now, due to the wing tip mount, during the flight test if you do any banks more than 30 degrees, it may loose connection to the Satellites. You need to plan for at least a 30 minute flight to get an accurate report from the FAA. We passed after figuring out the attitude problem.

Hope this helps for the ones still thinking about the upgrade.

Lloyd

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Re: ADS B Out Installation for Stinson

Post by truckerloyd » Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:04 pm

Gentlemen, I recommend the Uavionix SkyBeacon. Simple installation and is covered in the aircraft applied. It cost today about $1,900 and works with existing mode S and mode C transponders. No need to change equipment or mount a separate GPS unit. The unit is self contained and is a two or three wire hookup. Depending if you have a strobe system installed in the wingtip. Recommend you change your other nav lights to LED'S as they produce less heat and you need to have your nav light system on.

Now, due to the wing tip mount, during the flight test if you do any banks more than 30 degrees, it may loose connection to the Satellites. You need to plan for at least a 30 minute flight to get an accurate report from the FAA. We passed after figuring out the attitude problem.

Hope this helps for the ones still thinking about the upgrade.

Lloyd

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Re: ADS B Out Installation for Stinson

Post by lawheelock » Tue Jun 11, 2019 10:14 pm

Lloyd,

The sky beacon is an excellent choice for those that already have a good transponder. In my case, both of my transponders were aging (AT50s)and the GTX335 has a built in GPS source so I got ADS-B out for the price of the Uavionix plus a $1000 for a brand new transponder, 2900 total. I did my own installation and was out for some of the tools and wire but I was doing both airplanes, Stinson and Mooney, so not too bad in today's world and I am happy. And I already had the Aera 796 and GDL 39 3D so that completes my out-in for both airplanes. Stinson and Mooney. Both installations met performance standards with short flights in and around the Class C airport here, KHUF
Larry Wheelock, A&P/IA
Stinson 108 N584LW 180 Lyc
Texas in Winter; Indiana in Summer

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